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Feb022009
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Monday, February 2, 2009 at 9:23PM
(Portions of this complete interview first appeared in the Puget Sound Computer User)
By Bill Skubi
From his New York apartment on west 12th street cyber-author Douglas Rushkoff holds court on the World Wide Web. His message is about the hidden programming of the prevailing culture and how it cultivates our blind spots and makes us more fearful and resistant of ever bringing them to light. As Rushkoff and his X-generation get older along with the rest of us he has turned his attention to an even younger generation of kids for inspiration. His fourth book, Playing the Future (Harper-Collins 1996) is subtitled: How Kids' Culture Can Teach Us to Thrive in an Age of Chaos.
The Interview
Bill: I was Talking with a writer yesterday who said that the Internet was the one thing the military had done with his tax dollars that he gladly paid for. Does that ring a bell with you?
Rushkoff: The influence and participation of the military in the development of the Internet is vastly over rated. It's a sweet thought, that in this case there was a technology that was basically government and military that got used by real people rather than the other way around. The Internet was really created by scientists sharing information and educators sharing stuff. and though the military looked at it as a great way to maintain communications after a nuclear war they kind of hopped onto something that was developed in academia.
B: So, If it hadn't been academia or the military the Internet would have invented itself.
R: It's a natural evolution of of technology forward. Technology has been used for centuries as a way of controlling nature and limiting its effects on us and media is used to control populations and their ability to think independently. But sooner or later nature was going to express herself through technology just like it does through everything else. So technology would eventually serve the human need for community and communication, and sharing of information. So it really was a matter of time that processing power end up getting linked with the telecommunications Industry.
B: Community came up in the first couple minutes of conversation. I'm strung out between two models of community building right now. One is the Scott Peck model where people in their forties and fifties sit silently together in "meatspace" and allow themselves to not talk, and then I run across your idea of the new community being young people chatting away like magpies in cyberspace. What is community here.
R: Our society no longer has groups of elders sitting together for young people to either emulate or take some sense of comfort from. There is no community. The elders in our culture have been brainwashed into a kind of submission to the agendas of big business -- they are consumers. They live alone. Our elders sit by themselves watching television in a delta wave stupor. So if kids are going to, as they naturally would, look for a community to belong to, for some sort of togetherness or some feeling of lineage they have to create it for themselves in virtual space. I see the Internet and virtual communications as remedial help for a culture that has lost the ability to communicate any other way. Sure they would much rather go and enjoy people in "meat space" but we don't have meat space any more. The civic society has been all but completely annihilated in western culture. It's not a question of one or the other but anything that will work, anything that will give that feeling of community, of bonding.
Bill: I see, like Scott Peck would say its kind of a crisis situation all the way around. People aren't looking for the big revelation, but just the first step of finding community.
R: Contact, exactly, I mean our model of society changed from "make friends with the Jones" to "keep up with the Jones" because that was a much easier way to sell products to people. You know rather than having one big brick barbecue at the end of the block for everybody to use it makes more sense to Weber grills to sell one to each family on the block. But the thing is it's not all bad. The kinds of community that M. Scott Peck or Robert Bly talked about only worked because they were isolated groups of indigenous people. For all the community they had with their own tribe of a few hundred people they had great fear of neighboring tribes, ethnocentrism, deep xenophobia.
What's happening is we are trying to forge now a global culture rather than of all these competing individual tribal cultures, and in order to do that we had to break down certain boundaries, lose certain feelings of allegiance to nation states or race, or fundamentalist religion. Its easy to have a community that's based in hatred, that's why the most tightly knit communities now are the militias in Montana and neo-nazi groups because its easy to feel bonded to one another when you hate everyone else.
B: I look at my own 11 year-old child and he's definitely not perfect, but one thing that amazes me is that he apparently has no sense of racial difference. That doesn't even register with him. and that to me is kind of a miracle compared to the culture I grew up in the 1950s. Is this an indicator of the things you write about in Playing the Future.
R: Oh sure, and I don't think we have to say, "Oh look our kids are great and we suck." Our kids wouldn't be like this if we hadn't done a whole mess of ground work. They are not only a further adaptation of ourselves but they are a result stuff that we did. I always here from people of the sixties, "Oh this RAVE stuff is nothing new, and the computer net and all this tribalism, we did that in the sixties as hippies." Yeah, they did they forged that first link so why shouldn't we celebrate that kids are taking it few steps further.
B: Cool. You mention novelty as being the status quo now. I notice my parents, for example are novelty junkies, as consumers, they look for the newest thing, what's good about this.
R: What's good about it, even that is such a fundamentalist question. What's good about what your parents are doing is that they are open to new ideas. They seem willing to accept change, and they are delighted by the progress that humankind makes whether its technological or some simple product. That's your parents' way of embracing change and forward evolution. What may be sad about it is if their only way of doing it is by consuming things, not by expressing things or looking at new memos or ideas and incorporating them into their life strategy. These are probably people who appreciate you children for their ability to flip through channels and play on the computer. They probably look on in wonder and amazement.
B: I guess you are right on that one.
R: There are a lot of older people who at kids and say "this poor child is lost in a sea of Internet nonsense."
B: And compared to the changes I went through in the sixties and then realize how far they've come given their starting point. They took a bigger leap than I did probably.
R: They certainly lived through a longer one is all. Give yourself two or three decades more and see how much change you've had to deal with them.
B: You say everything is going to be all right, but I can't catch any fish anymore and the waters around here used to me teeming with fish. Do I have to write that off.
R: No, I would say do something about it. If you are concerned about it that is a great thing. The environment is in terrible shape, but if you want things to work out all right, what is the attitude to take? I would think its one of envisioning scenarios where everything could work out. The same is true of culture and civilization. If we can at least imagine and envision ourselves getting better. If we can start to enjoy some of the changes and then look to ways to mitigate the negative effects that happened before we are going to stand a lot better chance of getting through than if we act like either fundamentalist Christians saying the "the world's going to blow up and that's a good thing because we'll get to heaven,'' or like doomsdaying Liberal that are so upset about everything that there is no initiative to do anything about it.
B: I see your point here that the only difference in gross formula thinking between the fundamentalist Christian and the Fundamentalist Environmentalist is that one says the world is going to blow up and that's good and the
other says the world is going to blow up and that's bad.
R: Right, I don't want it to blow up at all.
B: In your saying that everything is going to be all right that isn't Cleaverism?
R: Which Cleaver do you mean?
B: Beaver Cleaver, or June or Ward. Your optimism, isn't it coming out of a TV set hypnosis that you got early on?
R: No, I think what it's coming out of is waking up. The television hypnosis really works to keep you in a state of anxiety. That's the way they sell products to you -- they make you feel uneasy. And I don't think that people who make you feel uneasy are your friends. They are making you feel uneasy because they are trying to swing you to a certain ideology or sell you certain products. I think if I can get my reader in a state of self-confidence and feeling empowered to actually make positive changes then they are open to more possibilities. You see Cleaverism comes from putting the person in a state of tension and then you say the way out is this or the way out is that, and then they say thank you. It'd be like giving someone a porno picture. True optimism requires a lot of work and imaginative skill to be able to think one's way out of a situation or envision strategies that could actually change things. I think the apocalyptic model of fiction is based on the male orgasm curve, tension built beyond someone's ability to take it anymore and then arbitrarily bestowed relief. And it goes all the way to the Greeks with Athena coming in at the end and saying "It's okay, I'm god, and I'll make it all right."
B: and if people get killed or raped in the process its just part of the story.
R: It's part of the programming. To get someone to accept your moral you design a story that fits it. It ends up being very arbitrary, because the audience is brought to a state of such tension that they will accept almost any relief that you give them, whether its a god, or a moral strategy or even a product, or Arnold Schwarzenegger shooting everyone with a gun. In none of those cases is the reader or viewer taking an active intellectual role I the resolution of the conflict. I think new forms of media and participation are emerging that don't give these pat answers.
B: I noticed when I discussed this particular idea about the way the parable, the story with a beginning, middle and end were dead that is the idea that has gotten the most violent reactions from the people I have talked with. They don't want to let it go. They say then we have chaos.
R: Right they can't see the order under the chaos. That's why I argue that things like Power Rangers actually have tremendous structural value when looked at from show to show to show rather than just a one-off half hour rock 'em sock 'em cybershow.
B: So you think kids are getting something out of Power Rangers.
R: I think that anything that gets deep cultural fascination when its expressed in a free market place of ideas, whether Beavis and Butthead, Power Rangers or the Simpsons generally is appealing to a deeper societal urge. Its not just that people are naturally attracted to trash.
B: If we have an Internet revolution going on opening up a world community.
R: Which I would call more a Renaissance than a revolution. Its not that were are killing someone and screaming off with their heads.
B: I don't know you talk to some 50 year-old white collar managers who have been thrown out in the street and they'll tell you its a revolution.
R: That's not the Internet -- that's from the existing institutions inability to deal with change. They are kicking out managers because they can't see the value in the elders. And the elders can't see the value in the young people. Yet there is such an opportunity for synergy between young people who understand technology, who know how to multitask, who under stand the new market place, and the adults who understand how the companies work, how adults think, how to maintain stature in the market place. But these companies now just shift from one ideology to another. They so hunger for these static managerial templates that they can't . . .
B: . . .allow themselves to fail.
R: I love to fail. You know individuals and freelancers and companies that are light on their feet have much more opportunity to fail.
B: and learn from failure obviously, but then again whether it is a revolution going sour or a company growing strong and then getting ossified -- that does happen. I just went to the Netscape Home Page and it looks like the Wall Street Journal now, geez, Marc Andreeson is sitting there in a suit looking like a corporate yes man. How can the Internet keep us light on our feet.
R: Luckily, most of us aren't the people coming up with killer applications. There are a few people every decade who are going be credited with such important inventions. So he's looking like a big corporate honcho, I don't know if you could use that as an argument to say that the end state of Internet acceptance and achievement is becoming like an old paradigm business man, you know a white guy in a suit. I think that we live in a culture in transition so you are going to see things move both ways for a long time. You are going to see people using the Internet in order to achieve old world types of success and you are going to see people who are traditionally old world types who are going on the Internet and becoming radical revolutionary psychedelic weirdoes.
B: What is really fun about Netscape is that the more it gets looking like the Wall Street Journal on the front page the wilder it gets on all the back pages.
R: Ten years ago people laughed at me at cocktail parties when I said everyone would soon be using e-mail, and it was the business men who first started using it. Businessmen to their credit have no static moral templates. Their only objective is to make money and the way that they make money is by increasing traffic in various areas of commerce and they take their cut of it. So they look to see where is the human hunger going. They have a pro libertarian marketplace sensibility so they were the last ones who were going to try and curtail the growth of the Internet no matter what the Internet meant for culture.
B: But there is also that thing that when somebody is in the top market share position they tend to be conservative and want restrictions . . .
R: Right which is the position IBM was in for a while, and now its the position that Microsoft is in.
B: And Netscape, too.
R: To some extent. It's interesting. In one way I bet Netscape would like to say, "Okay everyone stop!" "Stop right now, no more evolution of technology because we're in a good place."
B: The stone tablets will remain the medium of expression for the next 2000 years.
R: Right, and as any culturally progressive Internet person knows the World Wide Web is actually in many ways a step backwards form the real Internet. World Wide Web is the first publishing application that was put on the Internet and that's why all the companies jumped on, because there is no way for people to talk back. The World Wide Web is not about communication its about broadcast. And what the Internet is really about is communication. Like turning swords into plowshares, the Internet is turning the glass towers of public relations into conduits for cultural thought. As soon as the world wide web came out they realized they could do one way broadcasting business jumped onto that as the application of choice.
B: Are you saying the Internet is now devolving, or is it evolving in to something more two-way.
R: I think it was one step back to go two steps forward. What we are going to see now is the best web sites are going to be ones that have conferencing and chat technology and the ones that are just sit there like billboards aren't going to be visited that much. They are going to turn into FTP sites.
B: I know what you are saying about e-mail. People in business are using it now as a communications tool of choice.
R: Right, in some ways because it doesn't demand personal interaction. It's like a message machine. The question is whether personal interaction is just going to disappear from the workplace or whether now when people do have personal they are going to cherish it and use it for what it is. I think the trend is going to be away from PowerPoint presentations and playing videos to meetings where people say, "Oh here's another body, let's actually communicate."
B: And you don't think that happens in e-mail?
R: I think there is some good communication in e-mail -- there's certainly more communication. But I know a lot of people who use e-mail because its a very narrow bandwidth. It's much easier for an executive to send out a bulk e-mail to the forty people below him and not have to accept feedback as opposed to when he talks to them and they can raise their hand and say, "but isn't that stupid." You don't get red in the face with e-mail.
B: The way I think e-mail should work is to broadcast in conferences and workgroups to all parties. There should be no secrets in it.
R: And the best companies are using the electronic media to get more feedback not less.
B: I have to admit that a spontaneous email interchange started happening at the manager level within a company I consult with. I was facilitating the exchange making sure that everybody got all the pieces and the was the boss who e-mailed me back "Stop sending me this shit." One step back and two steps forward . . .
R: Its the ones who are afraid of the feedback from the front who are the kinds of executives that are getting kicked out.
B: This technology is ever changing and explosive and people go from embracing it to getting scared of it and back again.
R: Sure.
B: I'm getting a sense that the question I've been hearing for the last two years, "Yes the Internet is exciting but how can you make money on it?" is changing to "How can you make money without being on the Internet."
R: Most companies were really asking, "How can we make money the way that we currently know how to use the media on the Internet?" And the fact is you can't make money using the current, or obsolete broadcast paradigm on the Internet. You can' t program your consumers into purchasing decisions on the Internet. But what you can do is create focus groups of hundreds of thousands of people, you can take direct ordering and you can provide a place for your customers to experience community. And once you have a community of customers you are going to do a lot better business. But that is something that most companies aren't used to dealing with. They are used to a divide and conquer strategy. Make everyone feel in competition with themselves in order to keep buying your stuff. But if you create a community of users who then communicate what's good about your product, or what they don't like and how to make it better. If you can be responsive to the needs of that community you are going to win on a scale you were unable to imagine before. Ideas are traveling around a lot faster now so that our culture has the ability to evolve and adapt at a much faster rate. What camcorders did with Rodent King and the inner city. In terms of creating these remote high leverage points where people in remote places can yield huge system wide changes.
B: You mean along the lines of its academic to think of the Rain Forest in South America being destroyed but if we see a video of it we are right there, we can't deny it.
R: In a way. If Time Warner has a stake in the company's wrecking the rain forest then we are not going to see the same kind of stories about what's being done there as when a group like deep dish television sends a guy with a camcorder who interviews and shows what's really happening. As the tools of media expression get into the hands regular people we end up getting much less orthodox style news dissemination.
B: You talk about nature. Do you get out in nature or is New York City your nature?
R: Both. I think there is a real nature that we can take great lessons from and that we are getting less and less in touch with to the point where we might wreck everything. But I do see a nature in technology. I see the Internet and the media space as natural systems. These are real expressions of human beings, and there is no reason to say it is any less natural than a beaver's dam or bee's honey.
B: Except that in nature almost all species have some symbiotic relationship with other species. There are no other species on the Internet, right, bees don't fertilized the Internet and fish don't swim up the Internet.
R: True, but I see a lot of environmental groups on there, so in some ways its allowing us to converse about our connection to the planet. That's the main insight that people have when they go on live is, "Oh wow, we are all connected to one another, there's a global brain."
B: To me right now it seems like a brain in the bottle
R: It is.
B: The orgasms are coming by stimulating the cells on the top of the brain, not by having any connection with real sensory organs.
R: You are right but, I think what happens is people have that insight also. The first thing they think is "Wow we've got to get the rest of the world online. We've got to get all the indigenous people on line." The second insight to get kind of Philistine about it all is " No we don't have to get them online, we have to get ourselves offline. The Internet is white western man's very safe and dry way of experiencing global community. Talk to any Australia n Aborigine and he understands the connection of humanity to the planet.
B: I say, the first group that figures out how to dance and council around the campfire on the Internet will make the myths for the next 2000 years. Is that right?
R: I think what the Internet does is really demonstrates to us how really impossible it is to do it electronically. It's training wheels, it's remedial help, it's nursery school for people who have been unindoctrinated in global survival techniques.
B: So I see the Internet shooting us off in one direction and we are hoping and expecting its going to bring us back. What's the indication that that's going to happen. Spiritual is still happy within the brain in the body.
R: The spiritual is not really happy in the brain in the bottle. That's why you see kids involved on the Internet going to Raves why is that, because they want to feel the body. That's why they are going into mosh pits, they are piercing themselves. Look at the new primitives.
B: I can see that every action has its reaction, but what I want to see is that vision of the unity coming together, and people putting it together that seems to be implicit in your optimism .
R: Yes, its a beginning. People are starting to use words like global village. I know that's in headspace but they are. Literally four or five years ago people told me the Internet would never even happen, and the thing that drove, really, it was not business but a societal need that started in the counter culture for communicative technology. That was the hunger, the hunger that drove it was for people to talk to one another. If the underlying need is for togetherness and community and that's what drove what happened so far then I have now reason to believe that it's not going to continue. That's why I advise businesses that we are living in a demand driven culture not a supply driven culture. We could live in a supply driven economics when we had control over demand and we had control over demand when we could program people using top-down media. Now that we no longer have top-down media the way we can make a lot of money is by answering demand rather than creating demand.
B: You live and work in cyberspace but you make your money in paper and ink. How does that work.
R: I don't live and work in cyberspace. I don't, I live in popular culture which is becoming increasingly electronic. My whole reason for being is to translate the experience of fringe and youth cultures to the culture at large. I'm trying to serve as a bridge between chaotic thinking and linear thinking. The only way I'm going to be able to do that is by doing one of two things (binary thinking) either taking a linear story and expressing it in linear terms chaotic terms or taking a chaotic story and expressing it in linear terms. You can't do both. I'm just doing travelogues really, travelogues and translations. If I was going to go to Bali as an expert in Indonesian culture and write a book about it I'm not going to write it in Balinese. And no, it's not going to completely accurately express the essence of the monkey chant, but I'm going to get as close as I can. What's wrong with books. They don't have to go away. That's why everybody is so threatened by the new culture because they think its going to replace the old one. It doesn't it just augments it. Yeah, when rock music comes around there will be less people buying jazz and when jazz comes around there will be less people buying classical, but the old forms don't go away.
B: You don't think books are going to go away?
R: No, absolutely not. I don't think painting went away because of photography. People ask me why should I buy your book? What are telling me that I need to know? My book isn't telling you something you need to know. Buy my book because you want to have the experience of reading my book. I think the experience of reading a book is a cool thing. It's a headspace and in some sense a meatspace feeling to sit in bed with a book and be in that world. Its a great thing. It's a magic trick, its expressive, it's a beautiful beautiful thing, so why does that have to go away.
B: Reading a book does take an attention span.
R: Kids still have an attention span, they just don't have a tolerance for programming. People are very confused about that. Kids still have the ability to sit and play a video game for 19 hours and go on an Internet hunt for something with a single minded purpose. And we could complain , "Oh my god they are addicted to it they wont leave. I can't distract, I can't make them go outside." But the thing that they are really doing is yanking themselves out of linear programming. They refuse to listen to someone who is trying to put them in a state of tension, or is trying to get their allegiance to some product or social agenda. That's not because they don't have the ability to concentrate. Its because they are reacting to people who are abusing their concentration to program them into submission.
B: And they are not avoiding tension per se because video games give you a high degree of tension. But you are talking about a programmed type of tension where you have no input.
R: Right a programmed attention and a tension where you know if they are putting you in this much tension then they are selling a product at the end of it.
B: Do you think the younger generation is showing sales resistance. I don't see it.
R: Certain types of sales resistance. They are really willing to accept things where there is no story. Like Nike. They are very willing to accept iconic business identifications. But I think their acceptance and embrace of even iconic culture will diminish now. Thanks to talking to "evil consultants" like me big business has caught on the kind of skateboard sticker culture and they are abusing that now.
B: Yeah, every former hippie remembers the exact time and moment when the summer of love turned into people ripping each other off. Where is the way out in and through technology and how can the kids teach us to thrive in chaos.
R: These movements ground themselves when people become too uncomfortable with the change. What grounded the hippie movement was fear of what they had found out, and fear of a world without parents and authority figures. They went to the East and found new fathers, new gurus, and things they could by and do this a lot more safely. The whole trick is learning to tolerate a world without conclusions, without definitions, without over simplification and reduction, and its a hard thing to do, but the way to do it, and the way I think our kids are trying to do it, is by recognizing patterns in seeming chaos. Rather than imposing order over things recognizing the order that's already there. My critics (Mitchiko Kakitani) say there is no order to society unless we impose an order over it.
B: Bull!
R: That to me is an obsolete western notion.
B: It's elitists because it just reflects that certain classes have gotten their order imposed first and want to keep it.
R: Exactly, and of course a NY Times reviewer's going to think that.
B: Peasant cultures and indigenous cultures, and immigrant cultures all have their orders. They have their systems they all work.
R: Garcia Lorca got his poetry from the gypsy poets of Spain in the early 1900s.
B: Salmon have their order if you just watch them.
R: Gosh yes, I was over to the San Francisco aquarium and watched the anchovies in this huge tank and they all go to the left or to the right at the same time, and they have little sensors on their gills that tell when the whole thing is going to move. I mean the plankton have their order. It's really only human beings that are so confused and so unable to recognize the underlying order of the natural world. But luckily the media space has gotten so complex and so chaotic that has begun to simulate a natural system.
B: There again, to me books are kind of relics, a scale of skin off on the floor of the ocean.
R: Yeah, but they are a fun thing. There are ordered things -- it's fun to stand in a line sometimes when you do it by choice. To play follow the leader.
B: But then you are a New Yorker. Ha , Ha, I get it.
R: I don't mean standing in line waiting for something. I mean, "Let's make a big circle everybody!" What's that? It's humanity, and culture is the interplay between order and chaos. Just because books tend to require some amount of order doesn't mean they survive in an essentially chaotic world. You just write books about it. What was Audubon doing? He was just drawing pictures of birds.
B: Well he was killing them first.
R: He killed them?
B: Yeah.
R: Ah, so he could get them still.
B: He killed them and mounted them and then he drew them.
R: Those are drawings of stuffed birds?
B: Yeah.
R: That's horrible.
B: Sorry.
R: I thought he was a big nature guy.
B: A nature guy with a gun. That's the way it was back then.
R: I don't see why books go away. Books have physical value, and a totem presence that nothing electronic does. (his call waiting rings) Hold on one sec.
B: Okay.
R: Great. Where are you from, cause my publisher is on the other line.
B: This is for the Puget Sound Computer User, a Computer monthly in the Seattle area. We have this one thought about the totemic presence of the book, this still bothers me.
R: They are objects. People want objects. They want real things. It's like kids have pogs. They want stuff.
B: Is that the one thing that is always denied on the Internet?
R: Yeah.
B: Aren't we going to get that. I mean color print outs, replicators, isn't this coming down the line.
R: Replicators? I don't think so. Not in my life time.
B: But the totem presence has a content, and in books isn't that , in the last 5000 years, a priestly gift from the gods translated by men type of thing.
R: Yeah, so what? It doesn't have to be hierarchical though. A person has a muse. He's connected somehow, to some greater essence and shares it. Either by having sex or by giving a rock that feels like something to him. It just doesn't have to come from authorities. Books don't have to come from authorities they can come from the Bronte sisters.
B: But books do come from publishers . .
R: They can be self published, too. Look at Wilhelm Reich. Totally self published.
B: I read him all the time.
R: Because he was hated by the establishment guys.
B: Isn't that what we have on the Internet now, a lot of self publishing.
R: Which is great. All I'm saying is that I don't think books are going to go anywhere. I think they are a great object . I think there is an experience you have reading a book that you don't have reading text. And I think thank God the Internet came around to make people realize what is special about books. You really think that books are going somewhere?
B: It's just that would be the implication from a lot of the things that you say and we are experiencing at the present time.
R: And today more people are buying books than ever before. It went up 15 percent last year. I'd argue it's probably books they aren't even reading but want to have.
B: Ha, Ha, oh the totemic presence. . .
R: They love the object.
B: So, I could see someone reads the synopsis of your Playing the Future online and then buys the book, and maybe doesn't read it.
R: They have it. It has a cool cover.
Check out REALNews
© REALNews 1996, 1997
By Bill Skubi
From his New York apartment on west 12th street cyber-author Douglas Rushkoff holds court on the World Wide Web. His message is about the hidden programming of the prevailing culture and how it cultivates our blind spots and makes us more fearful and resistant of ever bringing them to light. As Rushkoff and his X-generation get older along with the rest of us he has turned his attention to an even younger generation of kids for inspiration. His fourth book, Playing the Future (Harper-Collins 1996) is subtitled: How Kids' Culture Can Teach Us to Thrive in an Age of Chaos.
The Interview
Bill: I was Talking with a writer yesterday who said that the Internet was the one thing the military had done with his tax dollars that he gladly paid for. Does that ring a bell with you?
Rushkoff: The influence and participation of the military in the development of the Internet is vastly over rated. It's a sweet thought, that in this case there was a technology that was basically government and military that got used by real people rather than the other way around. The Internet was really created by scientists sharing information and educators sharing stuff. and though the military looked at it as a great way to maintain communications after a nuclear war they kind of hopped onto something that was developed in academia.
B: So, If it hadn't been academia or the military the Internet would have invented itself.
R: It's a natural evolution of of technology forward. Technology has been used for centuries as a way of controlling nature and limiting its effects on us and media is used to control populations and their ability to think independently. But sooner or later nature was going to express herself through technology just like it does through everything else. So technology would eventually serve the human need for community and communication, and sharing of information. So it really was a matter of time that processing power end up getting linked with the telecommunications Industry.
B: Community came up in the first couple minutes of conversation. I'm strung out between two models of community building right now. One is the Scott Peck model where people in their forties and fifties sit silently together in "meatspace" and allow themselves to not talk, and then I run across your idea of the new community being young people chatting away like magpies in cyberspace. What is community here.
R: Our society no longer has groups of elders sitting together for young people to either emulate or take some sense of comfort from. There is no community. The elders in our culture have been brainwashed into a kind of submission to the agendas of big business -- they are consumers. They live alone. Our elders sit by themselves watching television in a delta wave stupor. So if kids are going to, as they naturally would, look for a community to belong to, for some sort of togetherness or some feeling of lineage they have to create it for themselves in virtual space. I see the Internet and virtual communications as remedial help for a culture that has lost the ability to communicate any other way. Sure they would much rather go and enjoy people in "meat space" but we don't have meat space any more. The civic society has been all but completely annihilated in western culture. It's not a question of one or the other but anything that will work, anything that will give that feeling of community, of bonding.
Bill: I see, like Scott Peck would say its kind of a crisis situation all the way around. People aren't looking for the big revelation, but just the first step of finding community.
R: Contact, exactly, I mean our model of society changed from "make friends with the Jones" to "keep up with the Jones" because that was a much easier way to sell products to people. You know rather than having one big brick barbecue at the end of the block for everybody to use it makes more sense to Weber grills to sell one to each family on the block. But the thing is it's not all bad. The kinds of community that M. Scott Peck or Robert Bly talked about only worked because they were isolated groups of indigenous people. For all the community they had with their own tribe of a few hundred people they had great fear of neighboring tribes, ethnocentrism, deep xenophobia.
What's happening is we are trying to forge now a global culture rather than of all these competing individual tribal cultures, and in order to do that we had to break down certain boundaries, lose certain feelings of allegiance to nation states or race, or fundamentalist religion. Its easy to have a community that's based in hatred, that's why the most tightly knit communities now are the militias in Montana and neo-nazi groups because its easy to feel bonded to one another when you hate everyone else.
B: I look at my own 11 year-old child and he's definitely not perfect, but one thing that amazes me is that he apparently has no sense of racial difference. That doesn't even register with him. and that to me is kind of a miracle compared to the culture I grew up in the 1950s. Is this an indicator of the things you write about in Playing the Future.
R: Oh sure, and I don't think we have to say, "Oh look our kids are great and we suck." Our kids wouldn't be like this if we hadn't done a whole mess of ground work. They are not only a further adaptation of ourselves but they are a result stuff that we did. I always here from people of the sixties, "Oh this RAVE stuff is nothing new, and the computer net and all this tribalism, we did that in the sixties as hippies." Yeah, they did they forged that first link so why shouldn't we celebrate that kids are taking it few steps further.
B: Cool. You mention novelty as being the status quo now. I notice my parents, for example are novelty junkies, as consumers, they look for the newest thing, what's good about this.
R: What's good about it, even that is such a fundamentalist question. What's good about what your parents are doing is that they are open to new ideas. They seem willing to accept change, and they are delighted by the progress that humankind makes whether its technological or some simple product. That's your parents' way of embracing change and forward evolution. What may be sad about it is if their only way of doing it is by consuming things, not by expressing things or looking at new memos or ideas and incorporating them into their life strategy. These are probably people who appreciate you children for their ability to flip through channels and play on the computer. They probably look on in wonder and amazement.
B: I guess you are right on that one.
R: There are a lot of older people who at kids and say "this poor child is lost in a sea of Internet nonsense."
B: And compared to the changes I went through in the sixties and then realize how far they've come given their starting point. They took a bigger leap than I did probably.
R: They certainly lived through a longer one is all. Give yourself two or three decades more and see how much change you've had to deal with them.
B: You say everything is going to be all right, but I can't catch any fish anymore and the waters around here used to me teeming with fish. Do I have to write that off.
R: No, I would say do something about it. If you are concerned about it that is a great thing. The environment is in terrible shape, but if you want things to work out all right, what is the attitude to take? I would think its one of envisioning scenarios where everything could work out. The same is true of culture and civilization. If we can at least imagine and envision ourselves getting better. If we can start to enjoy some of the changes and then look to ways to mitigate the negative effects that happened before we are going to stand a lot better chance of getting through than if we act like either fundamentalist Christians saying the "the world's going to blow up and that's a good thing because we'll get to heaven,'' or like doomsdaying Liberal that are so upset about everything that there is no initiative to do anything about it.
B: I see your point here that the only difference in gross formula thinking between the fundamentalist Christian and the Fundamentalist Environmentalist is that one says the world is going to blow up and that's good and the
other says the world is going to blow up and that's bad.
R: Right, I don't want it to blow up at all.
B: In your saying that everything is going to be all right that isn't Cleaverism?
R: Which Cleaver do you mean?
B: Beaver Cleaver, or June or Ward. Your optimism, isn't it coming out of a TV set hypnosis that you got early on?
R: No, I think what it's coming out of is waking up. The television hypnosis really works to keep you in a state of anxiety. That's the way they sell products to you -- they make you feel uneasy. And I don't think that people who make you feel uneasy are your friends. They are making you feel uneasy because they are trying to swing you to a certain ideology or sell you certain products. I think if I can get my reader in a state of self-confidence and feeling empowered to actually make positive changes then they are open to more possibilities. You see Cleaverism comes from putting the person in a state of tension and then you say the way out is this or the way out is that, and then they say thank you. It'd be like giving someone a porno picture. True optimism requires a lot of work and imaginative skill to be able to think one's way out of a situation or envision strategies that could actually change things. I think the apocalyptic model of fiction is based on the male orgasm curve, tension built beyond someone's ability to take it anymore and then arbitrarily bestowed relief. And it goes all the way to the Greeks with Athena coming in at the end and saying "It's okay, I'm god, and I'll make it all right."
B: and if people get killed or raped in the process its just part of the story.
R: It's part of the programming. To get someone to accept your moral you design a story that fits it. It ends up being very arbitrary, because the audience is brought to a state of such tension that they will accept almost any relief that you give them, whether its a god, or a moral strategy or even a product, or Arnold Schwarzenegger shooting everyone with a gun. In none of those cases is the reader or viewer taking an active intellectual role I the resolution of the conflict. I think new forms of media and participation are emerging that don't give these pat answers.
B: I noticed when I discussed this particular idea about the way the parable, the story with a beginning, middle and end were dead that is the idea that has gotten the most violent reactions from the people I have talked with. They don't want to let it go. They say then we have chaos.
R: Right they can't see the order under the chaos. That's why I argue that things like Power Rangers actually have tremendous structural value when looked at from show to show to show rather than just a one-off half hour rock 'em sock 'em cybershow.
B: So you think kids are getting something out of Power Rangers.
R: I think that anything that gets deep cultural fascination when its expressed in a free market place of ideas, whether Beavis and Butthead, Power Rangers or the Simpsons generally is appealing to a deeper societal urge. Its not just that people are naturally attracted to trash.
B: If we have an Internet revolution going on opening up a world community.
R: Which I would call more a Renaissance than a revolution. Its not that were are killing someone and screaming off with their heads.
B: I don't know you talk to some 50 year-old white collar managers who have been thrown out in the street and they'll tell you its a revolution.
R: That's not the Internet -- that's from the existing institutions inability to deal with change. They are kicking out managers because they can't see the value in the elders. And the elders can't see the value in the young people. Yet there is such an opportunity for synergy between young people who understand technology, who know how to multitask, who under stand the new market place, and the adults who understand how the companies work, how adults think, how to maintain stature in the market place. But these companies now just shift from one ideology to another. They so hunger for these static managerial templates that they can't . . .
B: . . .allow themselves to fail.
R: I love to fail. You know individuals and freelancers and companies that are light on their feet have much more opportunity to fail.
B: and learn from failure obviously, but then again whether it is a revolution going sour or a company growing strong and then getting ossified -- that does happen. I just went to the Netscape Home Page and it looks like the Wall Street Journal now, geez, Marc Andreeson is sitting there in a suit looking like a corporate yes man. How can the Internet keep us light on our feet.
R: Luckily, most of us aren't the people coming up with killer applications. There are a few people every decade who are going be credited with such important inventions. So he's looking like a big corporate honcho, I don't know if you could use that as an argument to say that the end state of Internet acceptance and achievement is becoming like an old paradigm business man, you know a white guy in a suit. I think that we live in a culture in transition so you are going to see things move both ways for a long time. You are going to see people using the Internet in order to achieve old world types of success and you are going to see people who are traditionally old world types who are going on the Internet and becoming radical revolutionary psychedelic weirdoes.
B: What is really fun about Netscape is that the more it gets looking like the Wall Street Journal on the front page the wilder it gets on all the back pages.
R: Ten years ago people laughed at me at cocktail parties when I said everyone would soon be using e-mail, and it was the business men who first started using it. Businessmen to their credit have no static moral templates. Their only objective is to make money and the way that they make money is by increasing traffic in various areas of commerce and they take their cut of it. So they look to see where is the human hunger going. They have a pro libertarian marketplace sensibility so they were the last ones who were going to try and curtail the growth of the Internet no matter what the Internet meant for culture.
B: But there is also that thing that when somebody is in the top market share position they tend to be conservative and want restrictions . . .
R: Right which is the position IBM was in for a while, and now its the position that Microsoft is in.
B: And Netscape, too.
R: To some extent. It's interesting. In one way I bet Netscape would like to say, "Okay everyone stop!" "Stop right now, no more evolution of technology because we're in a good place."
B: The stone tablets will remain the medium of expression for the next 2000 years.
R: Right, and as any culturally progressive Internet person knows the World Wide Web is actually in many ways a step backwards form the real Internet. World Wide Web is the first publishing application that was put on the Internet and that's why all the companies jumped on, because there is no way for people to talk back. The World Wide Web is not about communication its about broadcast. And what the Internet is really about is communication. Like turning swords into plowshares, the Internet is turning the glass towers of public relations into conduits for cultural thought. As soon as the world wide web came out they realized they could do one way broadcasting business jumped onto that as the application of choice.
B: Are you saying the Internet is now devolving, or is it evolving in to something more two-way.
R: I think it was one step back to go two steps forward. What we are going to see now is the best web sites are going to be ones that have conferencing and chat technology and the ones that are just sit there like billboards aren't going to be visited that much. They are going to turn into FTP sites.
B: I know what you are saying about e-mail. People in business are using it now as a communications tool of choice.
R: Right, in some ways because it doesn't demand personal interaction. It's like a message machine. The question is whether personal interaction is just going to disappear from the workplace or whether now when people do have personal they are going to cherish it and use it for what it is. I think the trend is going to be away from PowerPoint presentations and playing videos to meetings where people say, "Oh here's another body, let's actually communicate."
B: And you don't think that happens in e-mail?
R: I think there is some good communication in e-mail -- there's certainly more communication. But I know a lot of people who use e-mail because its a very narrow bandwidth. It's much easier for an executive to send out a bulk e-mail to the forty people below him and not have to accept feedback as opposed to when he talks to them and they can raise their hand and say, "but isn't that stupid." You don't get red in the face with e-mail.
B: The way I think e-mail should work is to broadcast in conferences and workgroups to all parties. There should be no secrets in it.
R: And the best companies are using the electronic media to get more feedback not less.
B: I have to admit that a spontaneous email interchange started happening at the manager level within a company I consult with. I was facilitating the exchange making sure that everybody got all the pieces and the was the boss who e-mailed me back "Stop sending me this shit." One step back and two steps forward . . .
R: Its the ones who are afraid of the feedback from the front who are the kinds of executives that are getting kicked out.
B: This technology is ever changing and explosive and people go from embracing it to getting scared of it and back again.
R: Sure.
B: I'm getting a sense that the question I've been hearing for the last two years, "Yes the Internet is exciting but how can you make money on it?" is changing to "How can you make money without being on the Internet."
R: Most companies were really asking, "How can we make money the way that we currently know how to use the media on the Internet?" And the fact is you can't make money using the current, or obsolete broadcast paradigm on the Internet. You can' t program your consumers into purchasing decisions on the Internet. But what you can do is create focus groups of hundreds of thousands of people, you can take direct ordering and you can provide a place for your customers to experience community. And once you have a community of customers you are going to do a lot better business. But that is something that most companies aren't used to dealing with. They are used to a divide and conquer strategy. Make everyone feel in competition with themselves in order to keep buying your stuff. But if you create a community of users who then communicate what's good about your product, or what they don't like and how to make it better. If you can be responsive to the needs of that community you are going to win on a scale you were unable to imagine before. Ideas are traveling around a lot faster now so that our culture has the ability to evolve and adapt at a much faster rate. What camcorders did with Rodent King and the inner city. In terms of creating these remote high leverage points where people in remote places can yield huge system wide changes.
B: You mean along the lines of its academic to think of the Rain Forest in South America being destroyed but if we see a video of it we are right there, we can't deny it.
R: In a way. If Time Warner has a stake in the company's wrecking the rain forest then we are not going to see the same kind of stories about what's being done there as when a group like deep dish television sends a guy with a camcorder who interviews and shows what's really happening. As the tools of media expression get into the hands regular people we end up getting much less orthodox style news dissemination.
B: You talk about nature. Do you get out in nature or is New York City your nature?
R: Both. I think there is a real nature that we can take great lessons from and that we are getting less and less in touch with to the point where we might wreck everything. But I do see a nature in technology. I see the Internet and the media space as natural systems. These are real expressions of human beings, and there is no reason to say it is any less natural than a beaver's dam or bee's honey.
B: Except that in nature almost all species have some symbiotic relationship with other species. There are no other species on the Internet, right, bees don't fertilized the Internet and fish don't swim up the Internet.
R: True, but I see a lot of environmental groups on there, so in some ways its allowing us to converse about our connection to the planet. That's the main insight that people have when they go on live is, "Oh wow, we are all connected to one another, there's a global brain."
B: To me right now it seems like a brain in the bottle
R: It is.
B: The orgasms are coming by stimulating the cells on the top of the brain, not by having any connection with real sensory organs.
R: You are right but, I think what happens is people have that insight also. The first thing they think is "Wow we've got to get the rest of the world online. We've got to get all the indigenous people on line." The second insight to get kind of Philistine about it all is " No we don't have to get them online, we have to get ourselves offline. The Internet is white western man's very safe and dry way of experiencing global community. Talk to any Australia n Aborigine and he understands the connection of humanity to the planet.
B: I say, the first group that figures out how to dance and council around the campfire on the Internet will make the myths for the next 2000 years. Is that right?
R: I think what the Internet does is really demonstrates to us how really impossible it is to do it electronically. It's training wheels, it's remedial help, it's nursery school for people who have been unindoctrinated in global survival techniques.
B: So I see the Internet shooting us off in one direction and we are hoping and expecting its going to bring us back. What's the indication that that's going to happen. Spiritual is still happy within the brain in the body.
R: The spiritual is not really happy in the brain in the bottle. That's why you see kids involved on the Internet going to Raves why is that, because they want to feel the body. That's why they are going into mosh pits, they are piercing themselves. Look at the new primitives.
B: I can see that every action has its reaction, but what I want to see is that vision of the unity coming together, and people putting it together that seems to be implicit in your optimism .
R: Yes, its a beginning. People are starting to use words like global village. I know that's in headspace but they are. Literally four or five years ago people told me the Internet would never even happen, and the thing that drove, really, it was not business but a societal need that started in the counter culture for communicative technology. That was the hunger, the hunger that drove it was for people to talk to one another. If the underlying need is for togetherness and community and that's what drove what happened so far then I have now reason to believe that it's not going to continue. That's why I advise businesses that we are living in a demand driven culture not a supply driven culture. We could live in a supply driven economics when we had control over demand and we had control over demand when we could program people using top-down media. Now that we no longer have top-down media the way we can make a lot of money is by answering demand rather than creating demand.
B: You live and work in cyberspace but you make your money in paper and ink. How does that work.
R: I don't live and work in cyberspace. I don't, I live in popular culture which is becoming increasingly electronic. My whole reason for being is to translate the experience of fringe and youth cultures to the culture at large. I'm trying to serve as a bridge between chaotic thinking and linear thinking. The only way I'm going to be able to do that is by doing one of two things (binary thinking) either taking a linear story and expressing it in linear terms chaotic terms or taking a chaotic story and expressing it in linear terms. You can't do both. I'm just doing travelogues really, travelogues and translations. If I was going to go to Bali as an expert in Indonesian culture and write a book about it I'm not going to write it in Balinese. And no, it's not going to completely accurately express the essence of the monkey chant, but I'm going to get as close as I can. What's wrong with books. They don't have to go away. That's why everybody is so threatened by the new culture because they think its going to replace the old one. It doesn't it just augments it. Yeah, when rock music comes around there will be less people buying jazz and when jazz comes around there will be less people buying classical, but the old forms don't go away.
B: You don't think books are going to go away?
R: No, absolutely not. I don't think painting went away because of photography. People ask me why should I buy your book? What are telling me that I need to know? My book isn't telling you something you need to know. Buy my book because you want to have the experience of reading my book. I think the experience of reading a book is a cool thing. It's a headspace and in some sense a meatspace feeling to sit in bed with a book and be in that world. Its a great thing. It's a magic trick, its expressive, it's a beautiful beautiful thing, so why does that have to go away.
B: Reading a book does take an attention span.
R: Kids still have an attention span, they just don't have a tolerance for programming. People are very confused about that. Kids still have the ability to sit and play a video game for 19 hours and go on an Internet hunt for something with a single minded purpose. And we could complain , "Oh my god they are addicted to it they wont leave. I can't distract, I can't make them go outside." But the thing that they are really doing is yanking themselves out of linear programming. They refuse to listen to someone who is trying to put them in a state of tension, or is trying to get their allegiance to some product or social agenda. That's not because they don't have the ability to concentrate. Its because they are reacting to people who are abusing their concentration to program them into submission.
B: And they are not avoiding tension per se because video games give you a high degree of tension. But you are talking about a programmed type of tension where you have no input.
R: Right a programmed attention and a tension where you know if they are putting you in this much tension then they are selling a product at the end of it.
B: Do you think the younger generation is showing sales resistance. I don't see it.
R: Certain types of sales resistance. They are really willing to accept things where there is no story. Like Nike. They are very willing to accept iconic business identifications. But I think their acceptance and embrace of even iconic culture will diminish now. Thanks to talking to "evil consultants" like me big business has caught on the kind of skateboard sticker culture and they are abusing that now.
B: Yeah, every former hippie remembers the exact time and moment when the summer of love turned into people ripping each other off. Where is the way out in and through technology and how can the kids teach us to thrive in chaos.
R: These movements ground themselves when people become too uncomfortable with the change. What grounded the hippie movement was fear of what they had found out, and fear of a world without parents and authority figures. They went to the East and found new fathers, new gurus, and things they could by and do this a lot more safely. The whole trick is learning to tolerate a world without conclusions, without definitions, without over simplification and reduction, and its a hard thing to do, but the way to do it, and the way I think our kids are trying to do it, is by recognizing patterns in seeming chaos. Rather than imposing order over things recognizing the order that's already there. My critics (Mitchiko Kakitani) say there is no order to society unless we impose an order over it.
B: Bull!
R: That to me is an obsolete western notion.
B: It's elitists because it just reflects that certain classes have gotten their order imposed first and want to keep it.
R: Exactly, and of course a NY Times reviewer's going to think that.
B: Peasant cultures and indigenous cultures, and immigrant cultures all have their orders. They have their systems they all work.
R: Garcia Lorca got his poetry from the gypsy poets of Spain in the early 1900s.
B: Salmon have their order if you just watch them.
R: Gosh yes, I was over to the San Francisco aquarium and watched the anchovies in this huge tank and they all go to the left or to the right at the same time, and they have little sensors on their gills that tell when the whole thing is going to move. I mean the plankton have their order. It's really only human beings that are so confused and so unable to recognize the underlying order of the natural world. But luckily the media space has gotten so complex and so chaotic that has begun to simulate a natural system.
B: There again, to me books are kind of relics, a scale of skin off on the floor of the ocean.
R: Yeah, but they are a fun thing. There are ordered things -- it's fun to stand in a line sometimes when you do it by choice. To play follow the leader.
B: But then you are a New Yorker. Ha , Ha, I get it.
R: I don't mean standing in line waiting for something. I mean, "Let's make a big circle everybody!" What's that? It's humanity, and culture is the interplay between order and chaos. Just because books tend to require some amount of order doesn't mean they survive in an essentially chaotic world. You just write books about it. What was Audubon doing? He was just drawing pictures of birds.
B: Well he was killing them first.
R: He killed them?
B: Yeah.
R: Ah, so he could get them still.
B: He killed them and mounted them and then he drew them.
R: Those are drawings of stuffed birds?
B: Yeah.
R: That's horrible.
B: Sorry.
R: I thought he was a big nature guy.
B: A nature guy with a gun. That's the way it was back then.
R: I don't see why books go away. Books have physical value, and a totem presence that nothing electronic does. (his call waiting rings) Hold on one sec.
B: Okay.
R: Great. Where are you from, cause my publisher is on the other line.
B: This is for the Puget Sound Computer User, a Computer monthly in the Seattle area. We have this one thought about the totemic presence of the book, this still bothers me.
R: They are objects. People want objects. They want real things. It's like kids have pogs. They want stuff.
B: Is that the one thing that is always denied on the Internet?
R: Yeah.
B: Aren't we going to get that. I mean color print outs, replicators, isn't this coming down the line.
R: Replicators? I don't think so. Not in my life time.
B: But the totem presence has a content, and in books isn't that , in the last 5000 years, a priestly gift from the gods translated by men type of thing.
R: Yeah, so what? It doesn't have to be hierarchical though. A person has a muse. He's connected somehow, to some greater essence and shares it. Either by having sex or by giving a rock that feels like something to him. It just doesn't have to come from authorities. Books don't have to come from authorities they can come from the Bronte sisters.
B: But books do come from publishers . .
R: They can be self published, too. Look at Wilhelm Reich. Totally self published.
B: I read him all the time.
R: Because he was hated by the establishment guys.
B: Isn't that what we have on the Internet now, a lot of self publishing.
R: Which is great. All I'm saying is that I don't think books are going to go anywhere. I think they are a great object . I think there is an experience you have reading a book that you don't have reading text. And I think thank God the Internet came around to make people realize what is special about books. You really think that books are going somewhere?
B: It's just that would be the implication from a lot of the things that you say and we are experiencing at the present time.
R: And today more people are buying books than ever before. It went up 15 percent last year. I'd argue it's probably books they aren't even reading but want to have.
B: Ha, Ha, oh the totemic presence. . .
R: They love the object.
B: So, I could see someone reads the synopsis of your Playing the Future online and then buys the book, and maybe doesn't read it.
R: They have it. It has a cool cover.
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