Sunday
Jan252009
MEDIA RIOT: Breakfast with Rushkoff
Sunday, January 25, 2009 at 11:43PM
by Pamela Parker
Media-guru, Cyber-pundit, Internet community expert. Douglas Rushkoff, the 37-year-old author of Media Virus, Cyberia, and Ecstasy Club has been called a lot of things by a lot of people. The Village Voice's cyber columnist, Austin Bunn, recently called him "ever-present." Despite it all, the short, slight, New Yorker steadfastly refuses to be defined.
I first met Rushkoff on the Internet. I had dashed off an e-mail in response to a touching piece he'd written about Timothy Leary shortly after the psychedelic philosopher's death. Rushkoff had been a part of Leary's circle around that time, and the piece told the story of how he and the others were dealing with the devastating loss. Reading that column, I was struck by the way Rushkoff had tapped into and expressed that which is universal in human nature--how people feel when a loved one is no longer among them, and how it was to be in the orbit of someone so accepting, encouraging, and expectant of the best.
Amazingly (or so I thought at the time), Rushkoff responded to my e-mail, and since then we've had occasion to cross paths now and then in New York's new media circles.I've also read his books and become more familiar with his quasi-communist, idealistic ideas about human potential. You could say I developed an intellectual crush.
Recently I sat down at a Sixth Avenue coffee shop for breakfast with the writer, and we discussed his latest ideas about relationships between men and women in our culture, the Internet, and (one of his favorite subjects) sex. What follows is an edited transcript, which will spare you the rambling and deliver you directly to the juicy bits.
The scene: French Roast, Sixth Avenue, NYC. Rushkoff is wearing a white t-shirt, jeans, and eating a bagel with cream cheese. I suck down cups and cups of coffee and nibble on oatmeal (with almonds).
ON THE INTERNET BUSINESS:
PP: So how is it for you, like, for example the other night at that Rising Tide Summit party. Like, everyone's doing business, trading business cards, trying to make a lot of money. It seems like, you're here in New York in the middle of go-go Internet world, and yet, it seems to be totally against what you stand for. How is that for you?
DR: Well, it's better here than in San Francisco, where it's even more about money, and return on investment and capital and all that. The interesting thing is that in San Francisco, since they'd never dealt with capitalism before. They've never dealt with stock-markety stuff like this. These were hippie people. Then they realized that the way to develop their companies and all was to use this sort of NASDAQ, stock exchange, initial price offering thing, they turned it into a philosophy, you know, and they grabbed it. But they did it so quickly and in such virgin territory that they didn't have time or the presence of mind to instill themselves with any other value system.
Like in New York, New York at least is connected to culture, and Europe, and intellectual movements, you know, everything from socialism to Hegel to Marx to Freud and all is discussed and thought about on the East Coast. We've had a very long time to understand the influence of money and commercialism on our experience of life, and meaning, and all that. On the West Coast, they were unprepared, they had no idea. So, if anything, there it's worse. There it's one big business card. It's insane.
Here, I find there are more people like Jaime Levy [of Electronic Hollywood] or Marisa Bowe [of the newly-resurrected Word], who are doing the business and getting investment and venture capital and all, but also have a value system that's connected to sort of arts...or ideas. You understand the balance of that so it's not quite as runaway.
On the East Coast more than the West, they're looking for a way to integrate their political values, their ethics, with this crazy runaway business. If anything, though, as business usually works, that moment's pause to think about that could be our downfall, you know. And other people who just want to make a dollar, in this society, will probably succeed.
PP: What impact do you think the Internet is having on the culture right now? If any.
DR: Well, it depends which culture you meant. If you just talk about upper-middle class white culture, suburban culture, the culture that we know about, I think it has permanently changed people's relationship to media. Now they have the ability to speak through the tube rather than just listen to the tube. I think it's demystified the television image, which is significant. I think it's changed people's perception of how the media works. I don't think they see the media as a place where they receive information anymore, but a place where they go out. So it's a little different that way. That's the big shift, and that's what businesses are trying to adjust to.
ON SEX:
DR: I'm just bored with cyber, which is why a lot of my cyber-messages are downers. You know? And I'm excited about other stuff. I'm excited about...I think we're about to rediscover sexuality in this culture, which could be really fun. I think people are searching for meaning and they're about to disengage from corporate capitalism as they only value system that they understand.
PP: So, what's next then?
DR: That. Sex.
PP: Tell me about the reinvention of sexuality.
DR: I think people are going to rediscover that sex is a magical thing, that it's a power thing, that it connects them with something much bigger than themselves, and that it's not so much about the squirt or the shiver, but progressive. We talked about cultural evolution and all--how better to evolve than to find genes. Genetic engineering is supposed to be at the very forefront of what we're doing. Well, we had that ability the whole time, in a sense--if we do it consciously.
But sex is a thing that "they," that power people, always try to disconnect us from. Because if you're having sex, or you're in sex or you're in a sexual mode, you're in the moment, you're happy and you're not tense, you're not anxious and you can't be manipulated. When you're not having sex and you're disconnected from your sexuality, then you're off-center, and you're confused and you can be led--by an ad, by an army, by a religion.
That's one of the first thing religions do when they come in, organized religions, is make sex bad. So they separate people from sex. Or governments even. I mean, gosh, look at the Victorian age, and Queen Victoria and how she was able to become so powerful. It was really by disconnecting people from sexuality. That's why the romantics....the romantics were, like, the sexual ones.
ON WORK:
PP: So, I know you're working on this book about coercion. Any ideas for something next, are you going to do a novel?
DR: I'm going to do a novel after that, yeah. Kind of about masculinity. It should be interesting. Or the end of masculinity.
PP: Explain.
DR: It's kind of hard. I'm not even done with this book. I haven't even started that one. I just think men are in an interesting position right now. You know, what is a man now? What is machismo now? I sort of want to write something about the last gasp of machismo before it's gone.
PP: You don't think it's going to have a big revival or anything? The backlash?
DR: It's going to be hard. It's going to be hard with sperm counts as low as they are.
PP: So it's all biological?
DR: Partly. And partly cultural. I think this whole. I mean, there is a gender thing going on...some sort of gender merge. And I don't see it as...I don't look back historically and see this great cultural swing between "oh, now the sexes are different, now they're more like each other, now they're more different." I just see it slowly moving to more like each other.
PP: I was reading a book called Creativity. I can't pronounce the guy's name...
DR: That Flow guy?
PP: Yeah, that Flow guy [Mihaly Csikszentmihaly, author of Flow]. He interviewed bunches of creative people and determined that the women shared more characteristics with men, and vice versa.
DR: Well, it's definitely true in theatre. The great playwrights of all time, the way you know they're truly great playwrights is they write terrific women characters. I mean, what is Chekov but those three sisters? Or Nina. And you know, Eugene O'Neill wrote Mary. Shaw wrote the women, definitely. And even the movie stars we truly like, they're like these men with women's eyes. Or like, Marlon Brando. There's this kind of vulnerability.
And, I thought, perhaps that’s what it is about Rushkoff—a kind of vulnerability underneath all of the punditry and the fascinating big-picture ideas. But then, as quickly as it had begun, “I’ve got to go away,” he said. And so he did. Until next time.
Media-guru, Cyber-pundit, Internet community expert. Douglas Rushkoff, the 37-year-old author of Media Virus, Cyberia, and Ecstasy Club has been called a lot of things by a lot of people. The Village Voice's cyber columnist, Austin Bunn, recently called him "ever-present." Despite it all, the short, slight, New Yorker steadfastly refuses to be defined. I first met Rushkoff on the Internet. I had dashed off an e-mail in response to a touching piece he'd written about Timothy Leary shortly after the psychedelic philosopher's death. Rushkoff had been a part of Leary's circle around that time, and the piece told the story of how he and the others were dealing with the devastating loss. Reading that column, I was struck by the way Rushkoff had tapped into and expressed that which is universal in human nature--how people feel when a loved one is no longer among them, and how it was to be in the orbit of someone so accepting, encouraging, and expectant of the best.
Amazingly (or so I thought at the time), Rushkoff responded to my e-mail, and since then we've had occasion to cross paths now and then in New York's new media circles.I've also read his books and become more familiar with his quasi-communist, idealistic ideas about human potential. You could say I developed an intellectual crush.
Recently I sat down at a Sixth Avenue coffee shop for breakfast with the writer, and we discussed his latest ideas about relationships between men and women in our culture, the Internet, and (one of his favorite subjects) sex. What follows is an edited transcript, which will spare you the rambling and deliver you directly to the juicy bits.
The scene: French Roast, Sixth Avenue, NYC. Rushkoff is wearing a white t-shirt, jeans, and eating a bagel with cream cheese. I suck down cups and cups of coffee and nibble on oatmeal (with almonds).
ON THE INTERNET BUSINESS:
PP: So how is it for you, like, for example the other night at that Rising Tide Summit party. Like, everyone's doing business, trading business cards, trying to make a lot of money. It seems like, you're here in New York in the middle of go-go Internet world, and yet, it seems to be totally against what you stand for. How is that for you?
DR: Well, it's better here than in San Francisco, where it's even more about money, and return on investment and capital and all that. The interesting thing is that in San Francisco, since they'd never dealt with capitalism before. They've never dealt with stock-markety stuff like this. These were hippie people. Then they realized that the way to develop their companies and all was to use this sort of NASDAQ, stock exchange, initial price offering thing, they turned it into a philosophy, you know, and they grabbed it. But they did it so quickly and in such virgin territory that they didn't have time or the presence of mind to instill themselves with any other value system.
Like in New York, New York at least is connected to culture, and Europe, and intellectual movements, you know, everything from socialism to Hegel to Marx to Freud and all is discussed and thought about on the East Coast. We've had a very long time to understand the influence of money and commercialism on our experience of life, and meaning, and all that. On the West Coast, they were unprepared, they had no idea. So, if anything, there it's worse. There it's one big business card. It's insane.
Here, I find there are more people like Jaime Levy [of Electronic Hollywood] or Marisa Bowe [of the newly-resurrected Word], who are doing the business and getting investment and venture capital and all, but also have a value system that's connected to sort of arts...or ideas. You understand the balance of that so it's not quite as runaway.
On the East Coast more than the West, they're looking for a way to integrate their political values, their ethics, with this crazy runaway business. If anything, though, as business usually works, that moment's pause to think about that could be our downfall, you know. And other people who just want to make a dollar, in this society, will probably succeed.
PP: What impact do you think the Internet is having on the culture right now? If any.
DR: Well, it depends which culture you meant. If you just talk about upper-middle class white culture, suburban culture, the culture that we know about, I think it has permanently changed people's relationship to media. Now they have the ability to speak through the tube rather than just listen to the tube. I think it's demystified the television image, which is significant. I think it's changed people's perception of how the media works. I don't think they see the media as a place where they receive information anymore, but a place where they go out. So it's a little different that way. That's the big shift, and that's what businesses are trying to adjust to.
ON SEX:
DR: I'm just bored with cyber, which is why a lot of my cyber-messages are downers. You know? And I'm excited about other stuff. I'm excited about...I think we're about to rediscover sexuality in this culture, which could be really fun. I think people are searching for meaning and they're about to disengage from corporate capitalism as they only value system that they understand.
PP: So, what's next then?
DR: That. Sex.
PP: Tell me about the reinvention of sexuality.
DR: I think people are going to rediscover that sex is a magical thing, that it's a power thing, that it connects them with something much bigger than themselves, and that it's not so much about the squirt or the shiver, but progressive. We talked about cultural evolution and all--how better to evolve than to find genes. Genetic engineering is supposed to be at the very forefront of what we're doing. Well, we had that ability the whole time, in a sense--if we do it consciously.
But sex is a thing that "they," that power people, always try to disconnect us from. Because if you're having sex, or you're in sex or you're in a sexual mode, you're in the moment, you're happy and you're not tense, you're not anxious and you can't be manipulated. When you're not having sex and you're disconnected from your sexuality, then you're off-center, and you're confused and you can be led--by an ad, by an army, by a religion.
That's one of the first thing religions do when they come in, organized religions, is make sex bad. So they separate people from sex. Or governments even. I mean, gosh, look at the Victorian age, and Queen Victoria and how she was able to become so powerful. It was really by disconnecting people from sexuality. That's why the romantics....the romantics were, like, the sexual ones.
ON WORK:
PP: So, I know you're working on this book about coercion. Any ideas for something next, are you going to do a novel?
DR: I'm going to do a novel after that, yeah. Kind of about masculinity. It should be interesting. Or the end of masculinity.
PP: Explain.
DR: It's kind of hard. I'm not even done with this book. I haven't even started that one. I just think men are in an interesting position right now. You know, what is a man now? What is machismo now? I sort of want to write something about the last gasp of machismo before it's gone.
PP: You don't think it's going to have a big revival or anything? The backlash?
DR: It's going to be hard. It's going to be hard with sperm counts as low as they are.
PP: So it's all biological?
DR: Partly. And partly cultural. I think this whole. I mean, there is a gender thing going on...some sort of gender merge. And I don't see it as...I don't look back historically and see this great cultural swing between "oh, now the sexes are different, now they're more like each other, now they're more different." I just see it slowly moving to more like each other.
PP: I was reading a book called Creativity. I can't pronounce the guy's name...
DR: That Flow guy?
PP: Yeah, that Flow guy [Mihaly Csikszentmihaly, author of Flow]. He interviewed bunches of creative people and determined that the women shared more characteristics with men, and vice versa.
DR: Well, it's definitely true in theatre. The great playwrights of all time, the way you know they're truly great playwrights is they write terrific women characters. I mean, what is Chekov but those three sisters? Or Nina. And you know, Eugene O'Neill wrote Mary. Shaw wrote the women, definitely. And even the movie stars we truly like, they're like these men with women's eyes. Or like, Marlon Brando. There's this kind of vulnerability.
And, I thought, perhaps that’s what it is about Rushkoff—a kind of vulnerability underneath all of the punditry and the fascinating big-picture ideas. But then, as quickly as it had begun, “I’ve got to go away,” he said. And so he did. Until next time.
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