Dreamflesh Interview

Douglas Rushkoff
An interview with Douglas Rushkoff by David Kendall
September 28, 1995



This is a large chunk of the interview I had
with Douglas at The Sanctuary in Brighton on the 28th September 1995.
This was part of his tour of Britain to promote his book, Cyberia: Life in the Trenches of Hyperspace (Flamingo).

---

David: How did you get into this?

Douglas: I was a theatre major in college. I went
to Princeton, which is a very traditional kind of school, and the
theatre people, the music people and the weird people in general hang
out together. We were the sort of psychedelic crowd. I moved out west
and a lot of the people, the most involved in alternative culture, were
also deeply involved in computer software, computer programming, doing
high level stuff up in Silicon Valley and I really wanted to find out
if all these computer people were like that. I'd remembered computer
kids in school, as you know, pocket protector wearing nerds.

David: We have the same image
here. You must have picked the most interesting and the most literate
specimens of their kind. [The same with] Role players, over here
they're dorks obsessed with power. You don't get kids saying, "I'm into
another hyperspatial reality," interconnecting with another world.

Douglas: You don't think so? Dungeons and Dragons?

David: Oh yes, they don't mind a bit of rape and pillage but that's basically feudal economics.

Douglas: Right, but they don't have to understand
what they're doing to be doing it. They're involved in a non-linear
reality. They're involved in roleplaying, without knowing, "Oh, we're
experimenting with other fields of reality."

David: Mmm, I sort of expect that from McKenna and Leary. I read Food of the Gods and enjoyed it. After reading your book I was a bit more sceptical. How did you find him?

Douglas: I think he's a brilliant guy but he's got
a kind of fundamentalism that bothers me. What he talks about is that
there's a bottleneck effect at the end of time, and that humanity's
going to take this leap into hyperspace. First, I think it's going to
happen but it's going to be much more subtle than that. It's not like zoom,
we're out of the physical reality, and two, the problem is, he says
that if you have the DMT or psychedelic experience you'll make it, if
you haven't had that experience you won't. That's kind of fucked up.
Because that's exclusionary. To me what the psychedelic experience says
to me is that All is One, either we all make it or none of us make it.

David: Yeah, like in Cyberia,
a technophobe's nightmare. If you're not on the Net, without a computer
you can't get a job, effectively you're not literate. I'm not sure if
it will become like that, any new medium finds its niche. Literacy was
an exception, it took over completely, I don't know about computers.
You could become dependent on the Net for all information, all support.

Douglas: But if what you're saying is true, and the
Net becomes the overculture, then the counterculture will go onland.
Right now the counterculture's online and mainstream culture's in
space. And what will happen is the counterculture will be people doing
real things.

David: Reading Cyberia, I thought there was a bit of a time lag. Britain seems to be more Pagan than Techno.

Douglas: Well House comes to San Francisco and we
incorporate the Pagan thing into technology, it comes here and you guys
incorporate technology into the Pagan thing.

David: Yet the way you put it over in Cyberia,
it seems much more passive than say Chaos Magick in Britain, which
exercises more will than that needed to turn on a computer or drop an
acid tab. Plug into the Net and surf Chaos, click your way around the
world, and you've got "freedom of information," that's just crap.
That's just an excuse to lay back and enjoy what's been given to them
by sixties radicals.

Douglas: Fine. Even Genesis P-Orridge talks about
the 'bliss' response. You know, to get the kid into the club you don't
have to let him know he's coming to a Pagan thing, that he's coming to
unlearn his Christian ethic, question his parents, the Queen and the
Pope. The music's cool, the girls are pretty, everybody's wearing black
make-up or whatever. They come in and they have the bliss response,
after they've had that I think a different set of desires emerge. I
think it's OK for a first stage. You drop acid for the first time
you're thinking...

David: ...mystical thoughts.

Douglas: Yeah, you're thinking Wow!, but then after
the fourth or fifth hour when you're starting to come down some people
get a desperation, how am I going to bring the reality of the state,
how am I going to bring all this one consciousness into reality. In the
United States that did get downloaded as the environmental movement,
the Women's Movement, the Civil Rights Movement.

David: But it wasn't just acid that did that though.

Douglas: Not just acid, no.

David: By itself what is in Cyberia is not going to produce a revolution [of thought]. I really think it's another cog inside a wheel that's turning slowly. [...]

[We shift onto Mayan time.]

Douglas: He [McKenna] sees 2012 as the end of Mayan
time, then we go out of history into chaos. We're in this small
intermittent period of control in this vast period of chaos and we'll
go back to it. I think when there's a fundamental shift in the way
people perceive what's around them, it creates the environment where
the sort of changes we're talking about can happen. It is passive in
that sense, feminine whatever. All these people are doing is tilling
the soil. They're not activists in that sense. They're creating a state
of readiness. I mean Rupert Murdoch and the corporate control machine,
consumer whatever, they're the ones who put the wires out there.
They're the ones that created television, telephones, all of that. They
had no idea that people were going to start talking out through these
things. So you can even look at consumerism, or even the patriarchy,
feudalism, all those horrible things. You can look at all of these as
the build-up to the release from all that stuff.

David: Mmm. It's also an
escape route for thousands of would-be students who would like to be
would-be rebels, by latching onto this they feel they're rebelling
without actually having to go on the streets. A lot of this seems to be
to do with image, it's very important to have the right image—whether
that's all part of a big scheme and in the end our individual worries
will be proved groundless, this new reality will appear and we'll have
been shitting ourselves all the way through it and yet it comes about
whether we want it or not. I hope it does.

Douglas: In America it's tricky, because the media
reality, the simulacra, and the physical reality are intertwined.
People have a hard time telling the difference between the two, people
believe that if I buy products from a company that supports a
'sustainable' land thing, then I'm supporting the environment. That may
not be true but on the other hand I had a journalist talking about just
this, people fixing the rainforests and how the rainforests were the
lungs of the planet, how they were being destroyed, how we should be
down there standing in front of bulldozers and if you're on the
Internet you're not doing that. Meanwhile, she's sitting there
chainsmoking cigarettes, and I said to her, "If you want to take a
fractal approach on the whole thing, I would say, you stop smoking, and
the rainforests' lungs will take care of themselves." Who's right? I
don't know.

David: Is that enough?

Douglas: From my point of view, from the Cyberian
point of view, if the world is a self-similar, fractal kind of thing,
then her smoking a cigarette is bulldozers chopping down rainforests.
It's one and the same. Not just in a visible tangible
this-cause-leads-to-that-effect. We live in a world where, if our
intellectuals are smoking cigarettes, then they are powerless to stop
the destruction of the rainforests.

David: Fair enough, but to
move to cyberpunk and the computer culture, do you not think there's a
tendency to see the whole world as a binary organism? Using the
computer metaphor is OK but it seems people are getting confused
between the map and the territory. It's like Newton's 'clockwork
universe', a way of looking at the world, but it's not the 'real' world.

Douglas: I think this is in Cyberia. You
know the argument between a surfer and a cartographer, the cartographer
would say where are you, above or below a certain degree of latitude,
the surfer would say, "I don't know, I'm on the wave." I would say the
surfer is right but he's using a different map, the chaos map.

David: But a map isn't the
same as the actual environment itself. The computer is just one in a
progression of hopefully more accurate maps of the world.

Douglas: Maybe, but there's what the computer maps
and there's what the computer does. I think what's valuable about the
computer is that it allows people to have a very non-linear experience,
allows what feels like a very ancient/psychedelic/pagan experience
through technology and in a very safe way. When you log on you really
travel.

David: Yeah, but surely nothing in paganism is completely safe.

Douglas: But is it safe? It's safe to you as a
biological organism, but it's not safe to culture as a discreet control
operation. I mean they're making raves illegal, what's this called?

David: Criminal Justice Bill.

Douglas: And the right to silence has gone.

David: So do we surf this cultural wave or get out and protest?

Douglas: Is going out on the Internet sitting back,
or is it extending out in a way that's extremely dangerous for those
who would control the information we get?

David: For the Cyberian image,
they have to believe they're dangerous to maintain that. There aren't
that many people in England on the Net. Some people can barely afford
the phone, so on a purely economic level it seems only a small minority
will get it. The Net has to have everybody linked up to be effective.

Douglas: The thing about the Net is that, unlike
people who got television sets, they didn't think, "I want everybody to
have a TV so they can all watch this programme," when they get online,
they really do want to reach out to other places, so in a way, the way
that Rupert Murdoch or whoever is providing this service is going to
provide a better and better service. You can talk to people in Somalia,
you can talk to people all over the country. If it's where the money's
to be made, and I don't know what you'd call me, a libertarian
anarchist or something, if it's where the money is to be made then the
Rupert Murdochs of this world have to be there.

David: So it's going to get cheaper and cheaper and everybody can get linked up.

Douglas: In the States they're giving away computers.

David: The Net is a displaced power to some extent but you have very little control over it.

Douglas: You don't want control. You want access.

David: Yes, but your access is
limited by factors you can't control, the phone companies whatever,
until you have control over the entire system, when it's free to use
and free of censorship, then you have something approaching a free
network. At the moment you've got a Net with very few people on it.
There's no guarantee of an intelligent conversation just because you
can phone America.

Douglas: I see the Net as very, very new right now.
It's certainly a cheaper way for me to have a conversation with you
than on the telephone.

David: Yeah, but I'd just write to you.

Douglas: You could but it's slow.

David: Yes, but writing gives
you more time. My phone conversations are relatively boring, you don't
have the time to create something really interesting like you do in a
letter.

Douglas: I've heard literally hundreds of arguments
against the Net, parents saying, "My kids can go online and get
pictures of naked women, get molested by someone virtually or
something."

David: That's true of any technological advance. The first thing that gets printed is pornography.

Douglas: There's a lot of possible very bad trips
that can be had, but there's also tremendous potential with this stuff.
It's actually pretty cheap, and what I think our responsibility is to
envision the way in which this can work to society/civilisation's
favour and then enact it. [...] I think it comes down to two questions:
is human nature changing, and if so, is it changing for the better, or
is human nature essentially good but worth moving forward? If it's not,
then no amount of cybernetic movement is going to change that. [...]
Cyberia is aimed at Middle America and whatever Middle England is.
People who have never gone online, who think that kids going to raves
are crazy, would never touch a psychedelic in their lives, and think
that the Internet is for weird nerds to talk to each other about Star
Trek. My purpose is to say; it's not. This is a vibrant community of
people with some very interesting bright aspirations for the future.
While they may sound off the wall and overly optimistic, I spent a
couple of years with them, and I like them. There's something worthy
that they're trying to communicate to us. If nothing else they do have
a inkling of a new way to organise reality, to organize the way we look
at things that might be better than what we're using.

David: Maybe it's because I come from up North, I always felt some sympathy for the Luddites. I don't really like machines that much.

Douglas: That's good. You see, I think there is a
natural evolutionary force against change and there should be, if human
beings changed too quickly they wouldn't recognise themselves.

David: Well the Luddites lost.
If they'd won, change would still have come but technology might have
been subservient to people needs, rather than the other way around.
Will we need the equivalent of the Luddites now, or will the change
come gradually, allow people to acclimatise themselves? [...] Being
able to confirm or discount a newspaper article about Somalia, say, by
contacting someone on the Net out there, is a nice idea, but it doesn't
remove any of the power bases, it simply spreads them out a bit.

Douglas: As I see it, the reason we have
powerbases, controllers, people in charge, is because we as a people
ask for it, we want it. As a civilisation we are a civilisation of
children, who like parent figures to set boundaries for us because
we're scared to make decisions and choices on our own.

David: Is that conditioning or would you say that it's inherent?

Douglas: It's both. It's inherent and we have
people condition us because that's the way we want to grow up. I like
to think we are on the brink of our societal adolescence.

David: That's not too good a prospect.

Douglas: It's rough, there's a lot of raging
hormones. There's a time when a kid listens to his parents, he doesn't
like girls he thinks they're gross, has his own stuff, my this, my
that. Finally because he wants to contact another person he breaks down
some of his barriers, he reaches out, and I think that's what happening
on a cultural level, people are going, "Well, I'd rather reach out to
other people than just take it from up there."

David: But in reaching out
down a phoneline or whatever, it gives people confidence, they can be
someone else, but in the end they're going to have to meet them, have
social contact.

Douglas: Yeah, this is play, this remedial help for a society that has lost the ability to communicate with itself.

David: I find that easier to believe; that it's therapy we all need rather than The Answer.

Douglas: It's not the answer. It's a stage. As any
good pagan knows, this is something we could be doing anyway. We don't
need a fucking computer to contact the entire Gaian mind, all we need
are the right drugs, the right ritual or the right state of mind. But I
think we have to convince ourselves of that, through a kind of play
period.

David: So in a way the computer is a toy, a learning toy like giving a kid a toy to help them read.

Douglas: And that's why it's alright now that only
the first world has them, because as far as I'm concerned it's only us
that need to learn this. I don't know if people in Somalia need to
learn the same lessons as we do.

David: Only problem is, it's
people in Taiwan or wherever that are making the damn things. The
Internet is going to be supported by more exploitation of other worlds,
it needs the cheap labour.

Douglas: Every silver lining has an awfully big cloud. [...] It's a slow process.

David: What sort of reception are you getting in America?

Douglas: Fear but different fears, not fear of
Somalia not getting computers. Not fear of there not being enough
intention. I get fear that kids are going to get addicted to
teledildonic sexuality online, they're not going to listen to their
teachers anymore, they're not going to listen to their parents anymore,
that rather than watching public television getting their stories that
way, they're going to talk to some weird radical person and find out
about world events through people who've no right telling them how they
are.

David: Sounds reasonable.

Douglas: Yeah. These are the parents' fears for themselves.

David: I can see the Net as a
good tool to bring people together but there needs to be something
else. Travel used to be considered a good thing, you travel the world
and you become this wonderful mature person. Now it's lovely and cheap
to travel, people whizz around Europe, station to station, they come
back and they've learnt nothing; to learn a culture you have to
experience it, that's why I think the Net is too easy, just click your
way around the world, no face to face contact. I'm not sure that
matures you.

Douglas: I'm not either but it is training. Some
person living in a remote region who doesn't have anyone to share his
opinions with, who can't find anyone to agree with him, he's reading
Noam Chomsky or something. If he gets online he'll be able to find a
community of people who can say, "If you like Chomsky, read this." If a
person begins to get positive feedback to their point of view, for what
seems like radical wayout ideas in the country they're living in, then
I think they're more willing to go to the pub or café and say, "Well
you know, this is the way it is."

We live in bedroom communities in America. We're so desocialised. So
many people have opinions but they're too scared to speak out against
conformity. It has to be the first step to something else. It's not an
end all.

Comments

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